The thread from @n_kari and the handsy M&G inspired me to put these thoughts down and post. I figured they should go as a new thread rather than in reply.
As a first point, I want to pose to the SB’s out there to think about the contact you want/think is appropriate on a M&G and first (platonic) date. Is the hand on your back for ushering you into the cafe the limit? A hand on your knee? The SD’s hand on yours on the table? My recommendation is to know what you want and what you want to signal based on the chemistry you feel at the M&G and first date.
My goals out of the M&G and then first date are to judge whether we fit for the interactions I want for a Sugar Relationship. This evaluation includes making sure she feels enough chemistry for intimacy. That means I will engage in physical contact at both with specific goals and a POT SB’s response can get cut from my list of POTs.
At the M&G, the contact level will be minor. A hand on her back as we go into our out of the coffee shop, a hand on her knee if we are seated where that is easy, or even a hug at the end of the M&G. I am looking to make sure she does not pull away, and ideally to see if she initiates contact in a small way after I have made physical contact. If she does not respond positively (let alone a push away), my inference is that she is not feeling the chemistry for the full relationship.
At the first date, I do more. I will try and set up dinner so I can get a hand on her thigh under the table, and definitely a chance for our hands on the table to make contact. I will do the arm around her leaving the restaurant, and even brush just a bit lower to tease at more and my interest if it can be relatively discreet. If she pushes away or even fails to ‘lean in’ to the contact at all, I’m likely to not pursue the situation further.
Finally, let me give a pair of specific examples. The one where we went on to see each other for a while and have a relationship featured us meeting for the date at a high end wine bar. I managed one of the couches for seating, and as we talked, enjoyed flirting and banter, my hand went to her knee, then teasing up her thigh just a bit. She responded by a smile and sliding into me just a bit as we enjoyed the evening. Things went forward as we both felt the chemistry. The second one was a drink after dinner, we had a table and the ability to put the seats close enough for contact and me to brush her. After I made the shift with the chair as we began to get seated to put her within reach, she shifted her chair so I could not physically reach her across the table. At that point, we were done. I did not get the sense the chemistry was there for what I wanted. As way of a note, when I sent the message ending it, I was up front about wanting the relationship with intimacy. She told me it was ‘possible’ but she was not ready. I thanked her and looked at other POT SBs.
So, to wrap this around a bit. If you’re an SB looking for the SD. It is not easy, takes work, and is not something most SB’s ‘fall’ into. Things are much easier for the SD’s to find what we are looking for. I suspect I am on the high side for planning and detail, but if I am putting this much thought into the signals I send and want to get, I suggest as an SB you have an approach and know your threshold/comfort with chemistry when you get to a M&G or date.
Thank you for taking the time to post this, I think the SD perspective is incredibly valuable especially in this area.
I will preface my comments with the thought that your approach sounds quite different than that of N_kari’s “handsy” fellow and indeed quite different from many fellows.
The sequence of events that you describe sounds reasonable, respectful and rather deliberate. I think that is a bit different from the approach of many SDs and indeed men in general (i.e./ your approach does not indicate any necessity for lumber based dissuasion).
It is quite reasonable to want a demonstration of mutual chemistry, especially in the accelerated world of SRs and again, your description sounds eminently reasonable and not onerous at all assuming the chemistry is mutual. Also, it sounds as though in the face of resistance and an apparent lack of ready mutuality, you do not pursue the issue repeatedly.
The disconnect seems to be that an awfully large number of “gentlemen” (not specific to POT SDs, plenty of vanilla match.com types are prone to this kind if thing) seem to feel that “adequate” demonstrations of M&G or first date chemistry involve aggressive and relentless under the table / under the clothing groping and attempted dry humping in the corridor to the ladies room or at the car door or even against the hostess stand… and, of course, unrequited crude / graphic “small talk” of the type that would make a sailor blush.
That sort of behavior can make the ladies a bit gun shy initially…and I assure you it is far from rare. Often, any chemistry that might have otherwise developed is stopped in it’s tracks by the need to fend off repeated single minded and hyper-aggressive pursuit in the face of reasonable hesitance.
Again, based on your words and the attitude you display in all of your contributions here, none of that applies to you or your “process”. but perhaps understanding what we ladies face on a regular basis will shed some light on our apprehension…I guarantee that every woman you know has horror stories that would make your hair curl and make you feel vaguely ashamed of your Y chromosomes…
Everything that @simplesimone says and my little bit…..
Hello @sfwinefan. Firstly I want to say I enjoyed reading this post and I agree (seem to be doing that a lot on here) with the points made and that as a SB you should be clear (or have a clear limit in your mind) of where you comfort zone is. I also think this is an important point for all new SB and should be made aware off. So since I am tagged I thought I would hop on over. Hope you don’t mind.
Although in my example I hadn’t anticipated “everything” that might happen I had considered a number of things prior to the M&G. I won’t recount the whole thing here as it’s not my post but I had sated no intimacy as it was just an M&G. However as you correctly stated hugs both as a greeting and leaving where given. I am sure if I sat there emotionless like a rock and allowed no contact at all I wouldn’t have been the offered a dinner date. Also the hand on the back and a hand on top of mine while on the table was well within what I had considered. This is friendly contact and there is intimate contact. Your first example of the SB where you both went on to see each other for while is a good example of intimate contact and how it can be reciprocated meaning you both reaped the rewards. Perhaps the perfect first date? The inmate hand holding under the table and hands on the thigh (and moving up) in my M&G was my line thought and not wanting to be off-putting I did politely remind him that this was an M&G.
Im not foolish enough to think I would have been offered a second date if it was some of the SD’s who frequent these forums that I had M&G with. But I aslo feel that I controlled the situation well enough (I have wondered if he was testing me) and I have agreed to meet him for the dinner date he offered.
I really do think you make some good points for SB’s but also perhaps SD’s to consider.
I would also like to add that the lines between friendly and intimate contact can get very blurry, very fast. So it’s important to have you limits in mind for this reason.
I concur with @sfwinefan‘s approach. I keep my M&G’s short, but it has to be something more than a purely business situation. In a vanilla situation, I’d have longer to test the waters, but we only have 15 minutes and I’m definitely going to touch an arm and attempt a hand on her back leading her to or from the table. If she finds that uncomfortable, then it’s clearly not going to work out and we don’t need to waste each others time. Being mainly based in continental Europe, there’s the advantage that a kiss is quite normal between platonic friends when they leave. I don’t instigate, but if she doesn’t move for a kiss on the cheek when we say goodbye, there’s probably not enough chemistry to move forward. In the UK or US, different rules would apply.
At a first date, I’m treating it more like a vanilla situation. It can vary depending on whether she’s happy with PDA, but I’d expect a positive response to flirting and subtle physical touch. If she looks uncomfortable I’ll slow things down. But, unlike a vanilla situation, if things slow down too much, there won’t be a second date. There’s a fine balance, but the ‘rules’ of the sugar bowl are subtly different.
This whole thread enlightens me, such a nice touch @sfwinefan !
When I meet a man for the first time, being touched without being asked is very uncomfortable for me. I like to make the move on a man I feel chemistry for. That said, having him put his hand on my back in a gentleman fashion way is not a problem. Having him touch any other part of my body is a huge deal breaker. The man would have to be extremely attractive if I were to accept this kind of behavior on a M&G. I’ve been asked if hugging was ok at the end of an M&G, which I found exquisitely respectful.
I’m very demonstrative and comfortable with making sure that I’m interested in a man. I also get the hints very fast when it’s time to figure out if a man is into me. I can say that no man will ever be left wondering if chemistry is good or not by the end of our M&G. I simply need to be in control at that stage.
As far as kissing on the cheeks goes, we, Quebeckers, share mostly the same cultural acceptance as in Europe except that we give 2 kisses, not 3 as I was told and could testified along the years. My view of this kissing ritual is just a friendly gesture, same as saying “Hi!”. Again, unless the person in front of me is utterly repulsive, I wouldn’t shy away from the usual and accepted cheeks kissing, but it doesn’t mean that I’m feeling any sort of chemistry either. I admit that in Quebec, socially speaking, it is very rare to see 2 males partake to the cheeks kissing. Sometimes, when I know that a man loves a specific brand of perfume, I will lean for the ritual having in mind the goal of pleasing his senses. But that belongs in the vanilla world, not this one. Until I have met the SD face to face, I thread carefully. Got catfished already.
Finally, this whole M&G experience with an unknown man is stressful for me. My safety is always high on my list and any trigger is a deal breaker. The fact that the men I meet are way older than me and, so far, not very attractive, the main aspect to build chemistry with me is their behavior. Which is why I mentioned on my profile wanting to meet a complete gentleman. Looks can bring you some places, but attitude will definitely sceal the deal with me at least.
Must leave work now, sorry if my reply is a bit rushed.
@inamorato, thank you. I appreciate the positive feedback.
@simplesimone and @n_kari, thanks as well. I am glad to hear that the post was welcomed. I did do it as a new thread rather than a reply to keep it distinct from the prior post (see the inspired by note). As one man’s deliberate contact is another woman’s cloying octopus of a date. Nor was I fishing for compliments, as I know my approach will not be right for all SB’s. In fact @afuryforluxury‘s reply is a perfect example. My approach very much sounds like one that would make her skin crawl, and I’m fairly sure if we somehow made it past a M&G, that the first date would have her clawing for the escape hatch based on her comments. [Basically given my approach, she would not be left to feel she is the one in control.] There is nothing wrong with it, but a wonderful example of how we would not sync.
@AFury, the other thing that stood out in your reply to me was the high stress level for a M&G. Be careful to build some habits/structure to keep it to good stress rather than falling into the stress that means you will not focus on him.
This is not a compliment (despite your truly shameless fishing 😜), merely a statement of fact (with which I believe that even @Fury would agree).
If all POT SDs employed the process that you and @inamorato advocate, and all SBs were politely communicative, the “sugar bowl” would be a far more friendly and civil place and result in far more legitimate SRs (assuming that the caliber of SBs was commensurate).
Your comment about a mismatch with @Fury could be remedied by a simple honest conversation at the M&G, no?
I cannot imagine that if you went to a M&G with a fabulous POT SB like @Fury who respectfully stated, at her first feeling of discomfort, that while she found you quite attractive, she asked that, for the sake of her comfort level with the process, you let her take the lead with physical contact during the initial stages (and then she did initiate said contact) you would be put off and drop her off of the list. Am I wrong? 😜Didn’t think so!
My point, which is becoming quite torturous I imagine, is that the combination of your previously described gentlemanly sensual conduct and clear communication at the outset of all associations would be beneficial to all. Alas, it seems unlikely unless SA (S) hires a couple of you gentlemen to hold mandatory SD training classes and gives similar classes for all aspiring SBs…
In any case, well done gentlemen. Your SBs are lucky ladies and I hope they appreciate you appropriately 😘
I concur to what @simplesimone said 😊.
If we make it past the M&G with a great deep hug at the end, the first date should obviously be awesome and stress free, unless your behavior changes drastically (like my most recent failure… see advice section for those who aren’t in the know). Basically, I won’t pursue a first official date if the M&G doesn’t go well.
I’m touchy-feely and will grab for a SD’s hand or other places. At that moment, the way is clear. I’ll definitely have no problem hugging him suggestively if it went very well, all that at the M&G. I wish for him to know that I’m interested and would hate passing on a gentleman, so I’ll make sure to be clear in my intentions physically in a classy manner obviously. I know how to demonstrate my interest in a man. Let just say that this is my “amazone” side. That control I’m talking about is strictly for the M&G.
That stress isn’t blurring my judgement of the man in front of me. What I meant was that I’m aware of my weaknesses as a female and the power game at play. By reversing the roles, it gives me a sense of safety which allows me to open up instead of retracting in a corner. It’s a good stress.
Quite a quick reply again, but hoping to have cleared up a possible misunderstanding.
Enjoy ! 😊
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